Examples? Not at all my experience. I love my Linux boxes but every MacBook I’ve owned has lasted 10 years and generally is quick until near the end of that period. My iPhones have also all lasted longer than my Android phones with considerably more updates and security patches (supposedly this will be more on par now if Google doesn’t cancel yet another program).
Easy to avoid on Macs. Harder on phones for non-technical types. The bigger issue with Apple is I think getting data out of iCloud should you want to do something else. Their proprietary formats and databases (especially for photos) is kind of a nightmare.
imo macOS is better value than Windows. A Windows PC of similar quality to what Apple offers (built quality and specs) is not that much cheaper and with a Mac you get a ton of actually usable software included.
Obviously FOSS still wins offering a ton of good software for free, lots of choice and the option to choose from hardware at any price point. But Windows is just bad unless you’re an enterprise user or gamer (and the latter is changing fast in Linux favour).
A Windows PC of similar quality to what Apple offers (built quality and specs) is not that much cheaper
I don’t think that’s true, at least if we’re talking about hardware. The only thing that I think really makes this argument is the screen, because you need to go really high end to get the same quality screen (if it exists).
If we mostly stick to CPU, RAM, storage, etc, then you can get a really competitive PC for about half the cost. I bought a decent ThinkPad new about 7 years ago for $500 (E series), which was pretty competitive w/ the Macbook Pro in terms of specs, and I still use it to this day. I didn’t go top-of-the-line, so the CPU was a little worse and it had integrated graphics, but I could absolutely find a similar build to the MBP for $1k or so, probably less. The MacBook Air and Mac Mini, however, is a lot harder to find a competitor for and I think their value is quite strong with that form factor.
If we include software, then yeah, macOS offers a ton of value, since you get a decent office suite and a bunch of other utilities included with it, whereas w/ Windows, you just get trial versions of subscription software. So valuing the included SW in macOS vs Windows really depends on the individual.
Windows is just bad
Agreed. I only buy “Windows” laptops to install Linux on, and on my last laptop, I got a $40 discount because I told the sales rep I wasn’t interested in Windows and they gave that to me.
That said, the value that Windows provides that other OSes don’t is compatibility. macOS can’t play Windows games, and Linux can’t play some games that work on Windows. If you need that compatibility, the value assessment is a lot different than if you could switch platforms without giving anything up.
Yeah, but if you look at the whole picture and not just specs, the hardware isn’t priced that badly. Like you said, a similar screen would only be found on high end devices and I would argue you can’t even get a trackpad that is as good as the one on a MacBook from any other manufacturer. You also get a pretty decent webcam and speakers and the aluminium chassis is exceptionally good too. If you don’t care about those things then I understand looking mainly at specs, but if you do these things add up to a really good user experience.
Don’t get me wrong though. I don’t want to shill for Apple here. There are some things that are just obscenely expensive. The cost of RAM
and storage upgrades is an insult. Or the Mac Pro wheels or basically anything “small” (adapters, the Apple cloth etc.).
I think macs are more comparable when you compare OEM PC to OEM PC. I’ve specced out a few optiplexes for clients and all have been over a grand each. I wouldnt spend that much on my own computer but I know how to pick a good used computer or build my own if I so desire. The clients just want a computer they can forget about for a decade and yell at Dell when it breaks so Optiplex it is.
How much does a Mac Mini cost? $800 for a variant with 512GB of storage. Literally cheaper than a similar Dell Opitplex
Not really if you actually try to match the screen too. Good colour accuracy is expensive. It’s the best part of their products. If someone doesn’t need that then yeah, definitely better options.
I guess for desktops you have a point, especially if you build it yourself. I was thinking of laptops mostly and also considering the build quality and things like the keyboard/trackpad, screen and speaker quality. If you want something comparable running Windows the price difference isn’t going to be massive.
You can buy a top CPU laptop then upgrade or even pay to upgrade with high quality ram and storage modules and you would still be paying less than an equivalent Mac. Which you can’t upgrade of course, because the only option is buying as is out of the gate. No matter what Apple says, 32 GB of ram simply doesn’t cost $300, their pricing is meant to fleece customers.
Is there a particular model you’re thinking of? Not just the line. I usually find that Windows laptops don’t have enough cooling or make other sacrifices. If you want good cooling, good power (CPU and GPU), good screen, good keyboard, good battery, good WiFi, etc., the options get limited quickly.
Even the RAM cost misses some of the picture. Apple Silicon’s RAM is available to the GPU and can run local LLMs and other machine learning models. Pre-AI-hype Macs from 2021 (maybe 2020) already had this hardware. Compare that to PC laptops from the same era. Even in this era, try getting Apple’s 200-400GB/s RAM performance on a PC laptop.
PC desktop hardware is the most flexible option for any budget and is cost-effective for most budgets. For laptops, Apple dominates their price points, even pre-Apple-silicon.
The OS becomes the final nail in the coffin. Linux is great, but a lot of software still only supports Windows and Apple; Linux support for the latest/current hardware can be a hit or miss (My three-year-old, 12th-gen Thinkpad just started running well). If the choice is between Mac OS or Windows 11, is there much of a choice? Does that change if a company wants to buy, manage, and support it? Which model should we be looking at? It’s about time to replace my Thinkpad.
Running LLMs is not a feature that 99% of users need or want. Look at all the AI laptops flopping in sales. People don’t care about RAM soldered to the motherboard to squeeze a milisencond on a feature they don’t use. It’s a money grubbing strategy, plain and simple.
My understanding of the different operating systems
MacOS: One time hardware payment for their service (plus for every other device)
Linux: Free as in price free and freedom
Windows: 30+ subscriptions to edit 1 file, then cooldown till next day or upgrade subscriptions to enterpise version for a kidney/per user/per month.
Title
ChomeOS: Communism for the children, supported by the Education System
And you get the privilege of making that one-time $2000 purchase every 2-3 years when Apple eventually nerfs their hardware with bad firmware updates
Examples? Not at all my experience. I love my Linux boxes but every MacBook I’ve owned has lasted 10 years and generally is quick until near the end of that period. My iPhones have also all lasted longer than my Android phones with considerably more updates and security patches (supposedly this will be more on par now if Google doesn’t cancel yet another program).
This is the most famous example, but it’s for phones rather than desktops.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-67911517
CheomeOS: Let Google silently start tracking your kids until they are old enough to sell all of that accumulated data.
Apple heavily pushes their users towards iCloud subscriptions. More so on iOS than macOS but still.
Easy to avoid on Macs. Harder on phones for non-technical types. The bigger issue with Apple is I think getting data out of iCloud should you want to do something else. Their proprietary formats and databases (especially for photos) is kind of a nightmare.
imo macOS is better value than Windows. A Windows PC of similar quality to what Apple offers (built quality and specs) is not that much cheaper and with a Mac you get a ton of actually usable software included.
Obviously FOSS still wins offering a ton of good software for free, lots of choice and the option to choose from hardware at any price point. But Windows is just bad unless you’re an enterprise user or gamer (and the latter is changing fast in Linux favour).
I don’t think that’s true, at least if we’re talking about hardware. The only thing that I think really makes this argument is the screen, because you need to go really high end to get the same quality screen (if it exists).
If we mostly stick to CPU, RAM, storage, etc, then you can get a really competitive PC for about half the cost. I bought a decent ThinkPad new about 7 years ago for $500 (E series), which was pretty competitive w/ the Macbook Pro in terms of specs, and I still use it to this day. I didn’t go top-of-the-line, so the CPU was a little worse and it had integrated graphics, but I could absolutely find a similar build to the MBP for $1k or so, probably less. The MacBook Air and Mac Mini, however, is a lot harder to find a competitor for and I think their value is quite strong with that form factor.
If we include software, then yeah, macOS offers a ton of value, since you get a decent office suite and a bunch of other utilities included with it, whereas w/ Windows, you just get trial versions of subscription software. So valuing the included SW in macOS vs Windows really depends on the individual.
Agreed. I only buy “Windows” laptops to install Linux on, and on my last laptop, I got a $40 discount because I told the sales rep I wasn’t interested in Windows and they gave that to me.
That said, the value that Windows provides that other OSes don’t is compatibility. macOS can’t play Windows games, and Linux can’t play some games that work on Windows. If you need that compatibility, the value assessment is a lot different than if you could switch platforms without giving anything up.
Yeah, but if you look at the whole picture and not just specs, the hardware isn’t priced that badly. Like you said, a similar screen would only be found on high end devices and I would argue you can’t even get a trackpad that is as good as the one on a MacBook from any other manufacturer. You also get a pretty decent webcam and speakers and the aluminium chassis is exceptionally good too. If you don’t care about those things then I understand looking mainly at specs, but if you do these things add up to a really good user experience.
Don’t get me wrong though. I don’t want to shill for Apple here. There are some things that are just obscenely expensive. The cost of RAM and storage upgrades is an insult. Or the Mac Pro wheels or basically anything “small” (adapters, the Apple cloth etc.).
Have you ever built PCs? Macs are significantly more expensive for the same spec
The rest I agree with, it doesn’t help that Windows has been steadily going downhill with each new version…
I think macs are more comparable when you compare OEM PC to OEM PC. I’ve specced out a few optiplexes for clients and all have been over a grand each. I wouldnt spend that much on my own computer but I know how to pick a good used computer or build my own if I so desire. The clients just want a computer they can forget about for a decade and yell at Dell when it breaks so Optiplex it is.
How much does a Mac Mini cost? $800 for a variant with 512GB of storage. Literally cheaper than a similar Dell Opitplex
Not really if you actually try to match the screen too. Good colour accuracy is expensive. It’s the best part of their products. If someone doesn’t need that then yeah, definitely better options.
I guess for desktops you have a point, especially if you build it yourself. I was thinking of laptops mostly and also considering the build quality and things like the keyboard/trackpad, screen and speaker quality. If you want something comparable running Windows the price difference isn’t going to be massive.
You can buy a top CPU laptop then upgrade or even pay to upgrade with high quality ram and storage modules and you would still be paying less than an equivalent Mac. Which you can’t upgrade of course, because the only option is buying as is out of the gate. No matter what Apple says, 32 GB of ram simply doesn’t cost $300, their pricing is meant to fleece customers.
Is there a particular model you’re thinking of? Not just the line. I usually find that Windows laptops don’t have enough cooling or make other sacrifices. If you want good cooling, good power (CPU and GPU), good screen, good keyboard, good battery, good WiFi, etc., the options get limited quickly.
Even the RAM cost misses some of the picture. Apple Silicon’s RAM is available to the GPU and can run local LLMs and other machine learning models. Pre-AI-hype Macs from 2021 (maybe 2020) already had this hardware. Compare that to PC laptops from the same era. Even in this era, try getting Apple’s 200-400GB/s RAM performance on a PC laptop.
PC desktop hardware is the most flexible option for any budget and is cost-effective for most budgets. For laptops, Apple dominates their price points, even pre-Apple-silicon.
The OS becomes the final nail in the coffin. Linux is great, but a lot of software still only supports Windows and Apple; Linux support for the latest/current hardware can be a hit or miss (My three-year-old, 12th-gen Thinkpad just started running well). If the choice is between Mac OS or Windows 11, is there much of a choice? Does that change if a company wants to buy, manage, and support it? Which model should we be looking at? It’s about time to replace my Thinkpad.
Running LLMs is not a feature that 99% of users need or want. Look at all the AI laptops flopping in sales. People don’t care about RAM soldered to the motherboard to squeeze a milisencond on a feature they don’t use. It’s a money grubbing strategy, plain and simple.
Did you purposely miss the first and last questions: Which laptop is the good value?
I never said people need to run LLMs. I said Apple dominates high-end laptops and wanted a good high-end to compare to the high-end Macbooks.
Instead of just complaining about Apple, can do what I asked? Best cheaper laptop alternative that checks the non-LLM boxes I mentioned: