I read an old thread documenting the opinions of Lemmy maintainers an the .ml instance. The issue of funding a project with people openly expressing opinions many find distasteful and it being the biggest reddit alternative on the fediverse came up, so here’s a topic to discuss it.
What should we do? What are the options?
Answer: No fork necessary, there are Piefed and Mbin.
Just don’t give money to the instance they own that is pro russian occupation and pro china human right abuses
Does the term “freedom of opinion” have any meaning to you?
I think that Richard Stallman is a despicable person. Never stopped me from using and supporting the development of Emacs and GNU tools for the past 25+ years.
If you want to, go ahead.
But Lemmy isn’t a small project. Can you really bear the maintenance burden alone?
And Piefed & Mbin already exist, just recommend them over Lemmy then? They are also supposed to be easier to maintain, so fork them if you want to fork something.
Is the code good? Are you prepared to make any potential fork viable and useful in ways that Lemmy isn’t so people have a tangible, non-ideological reason to choose your software over Lemmy? Do you have a long term goal for funding and maintaining a fork?
That said, Piefed is already a thing, and it federates with Lemmy. It’s where I’m commenting from right now. It has a better on boarding process and does a better job surfacing things I care about.
I write opensource software, I donate to opensource, I use opensource. I however can’t do everything. That is why the question is “we” not “hey @gerowen@piefed.social why don’t you make a fork, you lazy bastard”. Code is not the only way to contribute to a project and I’m willing to donate to lemmy alternatives while it is still possible for me.
Piefed might be where I start donating. Gotta check it out first.
Move to PieFed
I’ll check it out. Thanks.
Reactionary forks don’t have a great record of success (or even getting off the ground).
Piefed already exists (although I contest the use of “reactionary” here)
It’s also not a fork
No, I think they’re doing a great job.
I just wish .ml was more honest with their rules and policies, so people can actually make an informed decision, before they sign up there.
It’s the Communist tradition to force it on people because they don’t want anything to do with it otherwise.
Once every couple months someone makes a post saying “I just found out the Lemmy devs are TANKIES! Won’t someone do something about it?” No one has expressed real interest in forking Lemmy, though plenty of people have expressed interest in someone else forking Lemmy for them.
Most of the dev interest seems to be on Piefed right now. For some reason Mbin hasn’t seemed to really take off, I don’t see people talking about it as much.
Mbin is just kinda weird. I guess there aren’t too many people who are after a Reddit-like that also care too much about microblogging. Or maybe they do but the microblogging part of Mbin is just an inferior experience to Bluesky or Mastodon anyway? Or maybe people just dislike having to call shitposts in meme communities “articles” in “magazines”?
You have piefed if you really want to. I personally am fine with developers having views I disagree with, expecting everyone to have the same views as me is unrealistic; if they tried to influence how you host your instance based on their views that’s something I’d disagree, but they do not do so on Lemmy.
We all have limits. For some communicating with those who tolerate genocide is alright, for others using their software is fine, and for even others they will happily give money to them à la “it’s not me, so why should I care?”. But if the number of people who don’t care is not enough to sustain that software development, it will have an effect. We can wait to see if we get that far or do something about it.
I’ll check out Piefed and Mbin as that seems to be most common answer here.
I don’t see a “we” in this, follow the free software way: Don’t like it? Fork it yourself or don’t use it.
It will become a problem for us if lemmy isn’t funded, won’t it?
We already have Piefed and Mbin.
OK, thanks. I guess I’ll be migrating to those and setting up a donation - if they don’t use Github sponsors.
Also the piefed main dev is nice normal human being with humanist views of the world. He has a rational discourse toolkit box with links about how to handle extremism, disinformation and stuff like that.
Piefed would be much better aligned with your views.
Both main devs of Mbin support at least Librepay.
The Lemmy platform is just a tool to manage and delivery content. And I think it’s important to differentiate the software from those who manages the software. I can see there’s is a tacit connection and influence there. But unless they start baking inherently bias features into the software and skewing it, I don’t think it’s a big problem.
Also, because it’s an inherently federated platform, if people don’t like the opinions of those who run a specific instance, they can (with the inclination and determination) spin up their own instance and manage that the way they see fit. And that has happened quite a few times over the last couple of years.
So no, I don’t think it requires a fork really. Not unless the people managing the main branch lose interest and the software starts to wither on the vine, or they start corrupting it somehow. But that’s just my opinion.
I disagree. You are right that through federation and open source you can create your instance if another instance is a nazi bar. But now you open your new bar. Should you buy chairs from the nazis for your bar? Is it not a problem if the nazis are the only ones producing chairs?
That is to me the analogy with lemmy. Yes I don’t have to be on .ml. But I don’t want to sit on the transphobic, genocide denier built chair either.
Technology and society don’t exist in separate spheres and we should always consider them together.
So go with piefed if you can. I haven’t had any complaints since I switched :)
I really don’t like this dangerous trend of condemning actions of people based on wether we agree with them or disagree with them.
Because this behavior is at the base for intolerance and strong polarization.
First of all, I want to judge your actions for what they are, not for what your political views are. So Lemmy is good and I like that full stop. There will be better alternatives (maybe already are) and I will judge them without agreeing with their creators political views.
Second, I prefer to discuss and interact with people who have different views and political ideas than me, because that’s where I grow my ideas and enforce or dispute them. Enough of the echo chamber where the “algorithm” already places us in every social fucking media.
Kids, it’s by enforcing and supporting even the ideas contrary to yours that you grow up. Yes this is annoying and can cause serious brain engagement, but yeah, that’s how we progress.
Even fascists or communist ideas. Zionist or pro-Palestine, pro gender or anti woke, if we start judging peoples actions only for their ideas we become fascists.
I was also tought that what you do is more significant than what you say. Judge by actions, not words.
So I don’t dislike technology because the guy behind it is a fascist or a communist.
Said so, if anybody thinks that can do a better Lemmy by forking it, go ahead and let me judged by the actions.
OK, let’s say somebody who hates you to the core and wants to see you dead made software you found great. All they said was stuff like “I think your kind deserves to be shot”, “your kind are subhuman”, “they hung your kind and I see nothing wrong with that”.
Would you use their software? Would you enjoy being part of the numbers that they use to validate getting money, maybe even power? Would you publicly promote their software? Would you get others to use it? Would you even donate to them? Would you get others to donate to them?
This is the “radical centrist” position, and it’s serves the fascist power structure.
None of the things you’re comparing to each other are equal or opposite. You’re functionally saying “I consider good and evil to be equal, I tolerate intolerance”.
I’m not sure if you stand behind your examples, because you didn’t really say anything.
For starters…if you wanted to address the topic you would have compared apples to apples ie fascists to tankies. You can’t casually imply fascists and communists are two ends of a spectrum and both have interesting points to make, that’s absurd: the former are evil, and the latter are dreamers. The rest of your examples are similar.
The topic here is “what level of tankie propaganda are we dealing with, and is it appropriate to allow them to control what we read”.
This is some of the most pretentious, ostentatious posturing I’ve read on this topic.
You really think people can’t see through this?
You don’t see the irony in doing the “sophomoric debate club” thing while calling those that disagree with you “Kids”.
“Dangerous trends”, “base of intolerance” or the pompous drivel about “grow my ideas and enforce and dispute them” are almost comical in their tone.
The world doesn’t work that way. This is a motherfucking internet forum.
Or is this a satire of American style polemics and I got played? 🤣
If it’s satire, then good job!
I totally support what you said. If I don’t support someone financially by using his or her product I don’t see a big issue. And when reading through Lemmy comments for any given open source project there is at least one comment saying the mantainer said or did something or even a contributer is an asshole or has the wrong political view and therefore nobody should use the Programm. As long as the maintainer try’s to make something that more or less follows my views for a open and decentralized web I’m fine. If I think about donating on the other hand I would check if the morals are on the same line
